(no subject)

[deelaundry]

Did you hear this news story?

Four men lured a woman to a motel room under false pretenses and proceeded to tie her up. One of the men punched her in the face and poured glue on her genitalia as punishment for alleged sexual infidelity.





Oh, no wait, that was Four women lured a man, etc.

My own reaction to this story has weirded me out.

Comments

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

Hm. The infidelity doesn't sound very "alleged" to me, since apparently the only way all these women knew one another was because they'd all been involved with him.

I don't know. If it was unfounded jealousy I'd think these women were freaks, but if he was telling all of them they were his one and only? I just don't have much sympathy for him.

And that weirds me out a bit, too, because if it were reversed and the lying cheating scoundrel were female, I'd feel differently; perhaps because of the entrenched male/female power imbalance in our culture?

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I wrote "alleged" because the women could be making up their story. I assume they aren't... but they could be.

that weirds me out a bit, too, because if it were reversed and the lying cheating scoundrel were female, I'd feel differently; perhaps because of the entrenched male/female power imbalance in our culture?

That was exactly what was weirding me out about my response. Is it because I'm perceiving women's anger as somehow less potent than men's? That's not accurate... and not fair.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

I am somewhere between amused and horrified. Horrified, of course, because hello, assault. Amused, because--4 women? One of whom was his wife. Did he really expect to continue the charade forever? (And I know, that's a bad reaction to have.)

Edited to say: and yes, if the genders were reversed, it'd be appalling. (Though I'd think if it were a woman, she'd probably be murdered if not horribly brutalized.) Maybe it's the thought of the payback--of emasculating the man, taking away that power he has, that seemed--justifiable to these women?

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

Setting aside the attack itself, yes, he was pretty dumb to think he could get away indefinitely with dating three women in addition to his wife. Who has the time and energy to do that, and hide it?

On the attack itself, I'm just trying to think through my own reaction. Why does it seem less harmful that women attacked a man, than it would if men attacked a woman? Is it because men are physically stronger than women? Even though that's true on the average, it doesn't necessarily hold true in this case. Is it because I assume the man knew the women would stop when they did? Why do I assume that?

[nightdog-barks.livejournal.com]

Why? What was your reaction? Somehow it does sound much, much worse if the genders are reversed.

My thought was that a better revenge would have been for the women to tell the guy's wife and provide any documentary evidence they might have had.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

But the wife was one of the women involved in the assault. Which--yeah.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

My reaction was to find it amusing and to feel the victim got what he deserved.

And I am weirded out by that. There is no way I would accept an identical attack by men on a woman. No way. So why wasn't I appalled by this attack by women? Is it because women's anger is somehow "cute"? I'm disturbed by this.

[hry2007.livejournal.com]

I thought I had crazy exes...

In all seriousness, that's really weird and messed up. Still, my first thought was, if the genders were reversed, it would've been more violent, and wouldn't have been deemed very newsworthy.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I think a four-on-one kidnapping and attack is always considered newsworthy -- assuming it happens in the US. Other countries, the US media is not so concerned about.

On first read, I found the story almost cute. And then I was immediately grossed out by myself. Why in the world would I find these women's anger cute?

[savemoony.livejournal.com]

*blinks*

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

It's weird!

[remydoodle.livejournal.com]

When I read the first part of the post I was horrified. Because what stood out for me was the ALLEGED sexual infidelity. I thought it was going to be a story from some foreign country that treats woman as second class citizens. Like that woman that was (i think) killed because her husband wanted a divorce so he accused her of some horrible stuff. Her kids were taken away and everything. I don't remember the whole story but I think she was stoned to death.

Then I read the article. It was extreme! But there was no ALLEGED sexual infidelity, all the girlfriends and wife were there. She should have just gathered all the info and took him to the cleaners. Unless of course he had nothing, in which case gluing his genitals to his stomach is all the satisfaction she will get out of it.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I said "alleged" because it's not proven in a court of law that he cheated. The women could have made up the story -- just like the article you read about a person in another country.

I think the right response to this kind of attack is to be horrified and appalled. But when it was a man attacked by women, I wasn't appalled or horrified, and I am disturbed by that.

None of this is to say that I think it's OK to cheat on your spouse. It's not, and you're absolutely right that a cheating spouse ought to pay heavily in divorce court. But not be kidnapped and punched.

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

Been thinking about this and I've concluded that my response is influenced by a number of things.

First of all, the (yes, probably wrong) idea that men are physically and mentally more capable of handling this sort of thing, with less trauma. This includes the fact that removing glue from male (external) genitalia has got to be a less painful and invasive process than removing it from the female anatomy, so the glue seems less horrible a fate.

Second, a man in this situation would, I think, have a reasonable expectation that he would live to tell the tale. A woman would have a reasonable expectation that she was about to die. Thus, the level of emotional trauma as I perceive it is very, VERY different.

And maybe I'm wrong about that, but. There it is.

ETA that what bugged me about it was the worry that I might have been amused because I don't feel that men deserve the same level of basic respect as women. I'm still not sure why I seem to feel that a male philanderer deserves worse punishment than a female one.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

Your second point explains a lot for me. A lot. Because I wouldn't find four women holding a man at gunpoint amusing at all. Great insight - thank you!

[magie-05.livejournal.com]

Yipes. That creeps me out either way really, although the first part of this post does sound more like something you'd hear about happening in Islamabad or someplace. But idk, the idea of ganging up on anyone like that freaks me out. I mean, FOUR people had to agree to go along with this, and no one thought that maybe this kind of assault was just a little wrong? Just wow.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

See, your response is the one I want to have had. This was not a prank; it was an assault. I'm embarrassed that my first reaction was to find it amusing.

[spoggly.livejournal.com]

Not to butt in, but sexualized violence happens all the time in the United States; it's not just a problem "over there."

[spoggly.livejournal.com]

The expected balance of power and violence wasn't carried out; it's not unusual to be at a loss as to how to react to that.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you mean by "expected balance of power and violence." Can you clarify?

[shutterbug-12.livejournal.com]

My first personal reaction: I find this news extremely bothersome and appalling. I found it appalling when I read the content of the post (rather than the news article), and I found it appalling when I read the article. Hearing news of any kind of sexual violation is, to me, cause to be more than a little bothered.

I'd be interested to see what evidence exists to suggest that men handle sexual assault better than women, and by what standard. Are they somehow pre-wired to be desensitized to the humiliation and gross personal violation involved in a sexual assault? Are men automatically, somehow not terrified at the prospect and/or experience of their genitals being touched or handled in a hostile and potentially harmful way? Those women exacted a barbaric, draconian "punishment" that is not only what I would consider a disproportionate and unreasonable response but also completely unlawful. I'm certainly sympathetic to the fact that the man wronged his wife and the women with whom he conducted his affairs, but I'm in no way sympathetic to the womens' responses. They should most certainly be tried in court for their criminal actions and face the appropriate legal consequences.

I understand the concern about power balances and women's rights and equality. But I believe that it's kind of hypocritical of women to say that the actions of these four women are more or less excusable whereas a man shouldn't be just as excused for a similar crime. Women want equality, a balance of power, but any woman who tells me that they think women, in court, and in a case like this, should be held to a different standard, is hypocritical. Not only that, but I don't think that this man (or any male victim of assault) should be punished for crimes against women committed by other men, who may or may not have faced proper legal consequences. I'm not condoning any of the horrific crimes that have taken place, in this country or others, against women, but I can't condone crimes against men, either.

I'm not judging anyone or making digs at anyone who previously made comments here. I just want to make that clear. And all the emotional reactions here are, of course, like any emotional reaction, understandable and valid. This one was just mine.

[spoggly.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested to see what evidence exists to suggest that men handle sexual assault better than women, and by what standard.

I'm not aware of evidence that would suggest men handle sexual assault better, or even radically differently, and I would doubt the credibility of someone who brought it up.

Are they somehow pre-wired to be desensitized to the humiliation and gross personal violation involved in a sexual assault? Are men automatically, somehow not terrified at the prospect and/or experience of their genitals being touched or handled in a hostile and potentially harmful way?

This just doesn't work the same way for men as for women - rape culture ensures that the vast majority of women are aware of the possibility of rape or assault, in a way that is not at all true for men.

Not only that, but I don't think that this man (or any male victim of assault) should be punished for crimes against women committed by other men, who may or may not have faced proper legal consequences.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think this is a possibility?

[daisylily.livejournal.com]

My initial reaction was "Oh dear", said somewhat sympathetically, followed by thinking that if he did all that they claimed he kind of deserved it, followed by wondering whether they used Superglue (I hope not, for his sake).

I hadn't thought about it until you posted this, but if a four-men-one-woman story had cropped up, I'd have been thinking how terrible it was, BUT thinking about it again some more, if it was four men that knew the woman and had had 'relations' with her, I'd have reacted exactly the same as I did to the four women story.

I think the key thing for me is that the perpetrators knew the victim. If the story had been about four people randomly kidnapping someone and applying glue to their nether regions I would have been equally horrified whether they were male or female attackers.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I wrote you a response on the 4th -- where did it go? Sorry.

You're right that the perpetrators knowing the victim made a difference. For sure.

[pinglederry.livejournal.com]

Of course, if the 4-men-1-woman story cropped up, everybody would be horrified, and the women would be outraged, if they ever heard of it (depending on the speed of the news that day), and a lot of guys on message boards would act horrified but amongst themselves probably have the same reaction as the women on the comment board to the story had to this one, but probably with more swearing (considering the greater number of serious curse words involving women than men).

My first reaction to seeing comments to the article mentioning the comparison in crimes and complaining about the light sentence was more shades of ¨Of course now you want equal legal treatment¨ than anything else. Which okay, not fair, but I think a legitimate gut reaction. It´s an odd thing to think about, and definitely the novelty of the crime has a lot of impact on how we think about it. ¨Welcome to the other side of the playing field¨ may be a harsh thing to say, but it appeals to the irrational, vengeful id-type part of our brains, because the event absolutely pales in comparison to the millennia of mind-bendingly horrific violence against women. This poor man ends up being kind of scapegoated by the id, his trauma watered down by the automatic comparison to what women have faced instead of being looked at purely in its own right as the vindictive sexual assault it is.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I didn't read the comments to the article; they sound horrible. I assume the same thing you do about how the reaction would go if it was 4-men-1-woman.

[hibernia1.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean - whenever I hear about tabled being totally turned I feel somewhat pleased, like 'hey! you all scored one for the good guys!' but of course that's totally wrong, because hey, poor guy...

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

My initial reaction was to find it amusing, which just doesn't seem right. Now I feel bad for the man who was assaulted. I still don't feel as angry at the women as I wish I did. It's insulting to the women to find what they did funny and cute. : (

[kirili.livejournal.com]

Hah, my reaction was weird too - for me, it didn't make sense that men would do that. Four of them turning up to glue up a vagina with... glue. It made sense that women would, inasmuch as anything like this makes sense.

That said, wtf ladies! Wtf.