House episode 6-7

[deelaundry]

For once, I mostly want to reflect on the serious in this episode. It really bothered me that they kept calling what Wilson did "murder." He didn't murder (kill with intent) anyone; he provided the means for someone to commit suicide. That's still something you (and he) can debate the right and wrong of, but it's not murder.

What Chase did, on the other hand, is murder. First-degree murder, by US law: "murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation." Is linking it to Wilson's almost-euthanasia intended to be a comparison, downplaying what Chase did, or a contrast, highlighting what Chase did? I don't know, and that bothers me.

It's also interesting that Chase, who committed the more serious act by US law (and by my own moral judgment, although that's less relevant to the discussion) is trying to avoid taking any consequence, while Wilson with the less serious, less culpable act is trying to take on more consequence than, I can argue and House does argue, he deserves.

Does this mean that Wilson is more moral than Chase? I don't think so. I think they both went to extremes and tied themselves into knots due to their own pathologies. Wilson had the benefit of a good friend getting through to him (albeit in an underhanded, twisted way) and being there for him. Chase has been avoiding letting the one who's closest to him be there for him, and I think it's because he knows what the priest told him is right. He won't feel he deserves absolution until he both faces the enormity of what he did and accepts the just consequence of the murder he has committed.

Comments

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

I heard "murder" used once to describe what Wilson did, at the end of the episode. How many other times did I miss it? Also, I didn't think Wilson's tone when he said it suggested that he seriously saw it as murder -- more that he figured plenty of other people would.

But it's the same as the way this show can't seem to differentiate between addiction, for House, vs. legitimate need for medication.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

House said it at least twice. Once on the dock and once at the end of the episode. I can re-watch to see if there's more. But I think the word was deliberately used to parallel Chase's journey.

The show definitely has a problem with parsing out addiction vs. legitimate need for medication. The complication to that is that Greg House has both, and he can't figure out where one ends and the other begins.

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll look for that when I re-watch.

I don't think House believes it's murder, either. He does, however, believe that people in general are idiots and that encounters with the legal system are apt to not go well.

And I still want this show to take on the addiction-vs.-need thing, although I've just about given up hope that they ever will.

[theninth.livejournal.com]

I think the comparison is really just to make you think about what is and isn't murder, and when it is and isn't right. What Chase did is without doubt murder, but does it fall into the category of "for the greater good"? What Wilson did could also be counted s murder (technically, I think the closest you could get would be a charge of criminally negligent manslaughter, because Wilson didn't make an effort to safeguard the morphine override code which allowed the man to take his own life).

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

technically, I think the closest you could get would be a charge of criminally negligent manslaughter, because Wilson didn't make an effort to safeguard the morphine override code which allowed the man to take his own life

See, that's the thing. If they wanted to make a comparison, why didn't they have Wilson actually administer the drugs to the patient, the way Cameron did in "Informed Consent"? Then we could debate greater good and patient consent and all the things that would make that a fine line. Instead, they didn't draw a fine line, they drew a thick one -- a "Great Wall of China," to quote House.

Hm.

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

That was just one case in Wilson's presentation, though. I gathered there were at least three, and we didn't get the details on the others.

I'm figuring they were all somewhat similar, but it's possible one of them would have been more legally incriminating.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I missed that there were three. We only heard about the one.

Oh, no, that means I have to watch again! Mare, you are SO MEEN for making me doooooo that.

:D

[chocolate-frapp.livejournal.com]

also, Dibala's victims might well consider Chase a hero for killing him.

[theninth.livejournal.com]

Dibala's victims might well consider Chase a hero for killing him.

Exactly. But Chase did it in the U.S. and it would be considered vigilantism.

[srsly-yes.livejournal.com]

Completely agree with you.

From the perspective of the writers, I thought they weren't delving very deep into Wilson and Chase’s dilemmas. Rather just using them as markers in an ethics continuum. On a scale of 10, with 10 being the worst, Wilson is a two and Chase a nine or nine-and-a-half.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I've seen fans say that they tried to cram too much into one episode. That would account for not delving deeply. Hm.

[srsly-yes.livejournal.com]

I read about that too. Very good point, but does the show ever choose to do more than strip-mine a topic? It's frustrating. I gave up on the show doing anything more than titillate...which reminds me of Cuddy, but will save that for another time.

[nightdog-barks.livejournal.com]

Except I think in the eyes of the law (outside of Oregon, which has a physician-assisted-suicide law) it is murder.

There's an interesting study here (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/3587255-1.html), which (although it's from 2005) appears to strongly suggest that physicians can indeed be charged with homicide if the death is investigated and the prosecutor pursues it. Most don't (which I suppose is why Wilson said that only one or two doctors a year were indicted), but the barest possibility is still there.

ETA that thinking about it a little more, perhaps that was the point they were trying to make -- that two such different acts could both be considered murder by a zealous prosecutor, and to get the audience to think about the difference between those acts. I don't know. Whatever TPTB intended, I don't think they achieved it here.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you're right. It just seems strange to me that providing the means for someone to end their own life is the same legally as deliberately killing them.

But then again, as Mare points out, this show gets concepts mixed up all the time.

[daisylily.livejournal.com]

I'm still thinking about it (as a whole), but I definitely agree that Wilson is not a murderer. Giving someone a mechanism to 'let go' is absolutely not murder, by any definition (as you say, whether euthanasia is right or wrong is another question altogether - I have no problem with it, in that particular situation).

Chase, otoh, definitely caused Dibala to die through a deliberate act - that is definitely murder, but (can't remember whether this came up in the show or one of the online discussions) soldiers kill people in wars and don't get prosecuted for it, generally speaking. Dibala would have committed further genocide, by his own admission, if he'd been cured/repaired/whatever and so I suppose that Chase is possibly thinking that way.

I think the show failed if it was trying to compare the two situations, because they really aren't (imo) comparable.

(Another point has just occurred to me - Cameron would have been fine with it if Dibala had died of natural causes, I think, so I'll be very interested to see how she reacts to Chase's news (I was going to say that I think she'd be happier if he'd had an affair, but actually now I'm thinking not - him killing Dibala is kind of true to his nature, if that makes sense).)

[chippers87.livejournal.com]

(Another point has just occurred to me - Cameron would have been fine with it if Dibala had died of natural causes, I think, so I'll be very interested to see how she reacts to Chase's news

Cameron also would have been fine if Dibala had been killed by his own countryman. She told Chase as much in The Tyrant when that man attempted to run into Dibala's room and Chase essentially stopped him. So it will be even more interesting to see her reaction when Chase does pretty much the same thing.

[daisylily.livejournal.com]

I also think that Cameron would have been OK with it if Dibala had turned out to have some terminal illness - i.e. if he died it would just be good riddance.

[theninth.livejournal.com]

soldiers kill people in wars and don't get prosecuted for it, generally speaking

Different circumstances. Soldiers in a battle have instructions and permission to kill opposing troops in a combat situation.

[daisylily.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely, but I was just thinking of what Chase might be thinking to justify it to himself - along the lines of "it's not the same as 'normal' murder", if that makes sense.

[chocolate-frapp.livejournal.com]

yeah, euthanasia is not murder to the person doing it although it may be considered murder by another person who disapproves of it for their own reasons, ethical or otherwise, same as abortion.

[bery26.livejournal.com]

"It really bothered me that they kept calling what Wilson did "murder.""
You're talking about when House said it? I think he was just phrasing it like that for emphasis, to talk Wilson out of giving the speech, to make him see how most people would view what he had done.
Even if Wilson had actually done euthanasia, which he didn't even, it has been said that House has done it himself a couple of times and he told Cameron he was proud of her when she did it on Informed Consent. So yeah, even if in House-land it qualifies as murder, he's obviously ok with it. And so is the show in general, judging again by the end of Informed Consent.


"It's also interesting that Chase, who committed the more serious act by US law is trying to avoid taking any consequence, while Wilson with the less serious, less culpable act is trying to take on more consequence than, I can argue and House does argue, he deserves."
That is Wilson for us, guilt and sense of responsability are louder on his ears than they are on anyone else's. One of the things that make him so fascinating :)


I disagree about Chase though, after much pondering about it, I think he did the right thing, even if he will never be the same again because of it.


What did you like the most? The drugging and pantslessness? House's version of Wilson's speech? Wilson thanking House?
I think the speech scene wins for me, it was so intense and moving and I felt so much for Wilson. House did great right there.
I also have a thing for the scene when House finds Wilson's speech, Wilson's kinda blank face in the dark and House's conceiled shock, pure win.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about House's reason for being proud of Cameron in "Informed Consent." I wonder if (hope that!) the show will loop back to that episode again, and have Cameron compare what she did, in accordance with the patient's wishes, with what Chase did, which was for a greater good but against the patient's wishes. Her action is in between Chase's and Wilson's. It would be interesting to see exploration of that.

I am not 100% sure it'll happen : (

Did you see ep 6-7 yet? I want to ask you a question about direction/acting in one particular scene.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

how did you qualify Cameron's actions as in between Chase's and Wilson's?

Wilson provided the means for a dying, chronic-pain patient to commit suicide if that person wanted to. Cameron committed the actual act of killing a chronic-pain dying patient who wanted to die. Chase committed the actual act of killing a patient who most definitely did not want to die.

Wilson had indirect action, willing patient. Cameron had direct action, willing patient. Chase had direct action, unwilling patient.

***

There's a lot of interesting dialogue in the balcony bit that then gets dropped later, but at least Wilson's bringing it up. House does tend to act to "correct" things in Wilson's life a lot, either to help Wilson or to show him up. Fans complain about Wilson's nagging (and that is very annoying), but House thinks just as much or even more that he's the one who knows what's best for Wilson. He tends to be right, but he's still taking away Wilson's agency (to use a phrase someone said about Thirteen in an earlier episode).

***

The scene I wanted to ask about was at the beginning when Wilson is packing for the trip and grumping because House is trying to blow off the conference. Why do you think Wilson kept his back turned to House and didn't face him? In the direction, was that supposed to signify something?

[bery26.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, I only wanted to make my point about how House isn't really against euthanasia, as the calling Wilson a murderer would suggest, so I didn't go much further into the Informed Consent analysis.


"I just loved that "Informed Consent" introduced the euthanasia debate to House, that's all."
Ditto, that episode was really good and I loved the last scene.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

House said it twice, before and after the speech, and I think (though I haven't verified) that Wilson said it once.

I personally don't think Chase did the right thing, but that's not what my analysis is based on. His continuing desperate emotional struggle shows that he doesn't believe what he did is 100% right. Look at House. House had aided and abetted Chase, as has Foreman, but neither of them are continuing to be affected so deeply. They believe what they did was OK.

Chase doesn't believe that, not completely. As a result, he won't find any kind of emotional relief until he faces what he's done instead of trying to downplay it.

[bery26.livejournal.com]

"House said it twice, before and after the speech, and I think (though I haven't verified) that Wilson said it once."
Wilson said 'We are all murderers'. I don't think either of them meant it that literal, I felt it just like their way of phrasing things harshly (House always and Wilson ocassionaly when he's with House).


"They believe what they did was OK.
Chase doesn't believe that, not completely."
I know, that's why he went to a priest and then got drunk out of his mind, and that's one of the reasons why he'll never be the same again.
I may be ok with his descicion, but he's clearly not :(

[photoash.livejournal.com]

I didn't think about the death and guilt parallels! I am so glad you pointed it out. I really liked this episode overall and I was glad we got to see more of how Wilson as a doctor operates and his concerns (I especially liked that it was his 'learning from House' that made him want to say it to start with!) :)

I was disappointed by Lucas because I was hoping that really Cuddy just didn't trust House to take care of her baby unsupervised. I think that could be very interesting fodder for fanfic and thought because if I were Cuddy I don't know if I'd trust House with my baby alone in lieu of all that's happened.

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

I loved Wilson saying he'd learned something from House, and House yelling, "Yeah, look how well it's worked for me!" Both of them learning from each other.

And I had the same thought, that Cuddy simply didn't trust House alone with her baby. The Lucas thing came as rather a shock, because I hadn't been reading spoilers.

One small thing: I know what you meant, but I think the phrase you wanted was "in light of." Because "in lieu of" means "instead of."

[daasgrrl.livejournal.com]

As I've said elsewhere, that entire "murder" thing bothered me so much I wondered whether House was changing Wilson's paper on the fly to make him look less culpable. Because ITA, that's more like 'assisted suicide'. And even then the line is really fine. Maybe he's just a, you know, loud talker... actually, the entire language of the 'paper' bothered me, but that's a separate issue.

[taiga13.livejournal.com]

I was just speculating on T-Z's journal that what Wilson did COULD be considered murder if you believe that the patient was mentally incapacitated by his pain. That he would OD not because he wanted to die but because he couldn't bear the pain and therefore couldn't make a rational decison. I'm not arguing that was the case, just that it could be.
I hate when assisted suicide and euthanasia are referred to as the same thing. They're completely different.
House did say "murder" several times, but at that point all he'd read was the opening sentence of Wilson's speech. "Euthanasia: we all do it". Sounds like a tee-shirt slogan.
I've heard people say Wilson and Chase did the same thing, or that Cameron killing Powell in Informed Consent is the same as what Chase did, and I couldn't disagree more. There were two very important differences. One, Powell clearly asked for help dying several times and Wilson's patient presumably knew what he was doing when he ODed. They made those choices for themselves, Wilson and Cameron didn't do it for them. Two, Wilson's patient was DYING. Powell was DYING. Dibala was not dying.
Wilson and Cameron gave their patients a choice between a slow painful death or a quick one. Life was not an option. Chase chose to take someone's life because he believed he had the right to decide if he should live or not.
The way the paper was written bothered me too, but I think Wilson was supposed to have written it impulsively and that the language was meant to be informal.

[blackmare.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was a formal "paper" that Wilson was presenting; more like a discussion he wanted to start, and yes, very impulsive.

It's interesting to me that Wilson felt so isolated that he was willing to risk that much just to end the isolation and the guilt and get some kind of reassurance (and, yeah, I think he has a self-destructive streak that was at work there too). When it turned out that, this time, talking to House was all he needed to do.

Not that I don't understand why Wilson wouldn't have considered "talk to House" as a viable option. I'm just very relieved to find that it was.

[hibernia1.livejournal.com]

Oh, moral issues, cool! I haven't seen the ep yet, and won't see it for a long time, so I'll just say I don't have an opinion yet.