A discussion point

[deelaundry]

namasteyoga, stephbass, nightdog_barks, and anyone else of a contemplative bent:

Do you think House's statement to the effect that The world shouldn't work like that. Old drug addicts should die in bus accidents, not young do-gooders. is consistent with House's previously stated views on death and the way the world works? Why or why not?

Comments

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Not remotely. But I don't think anyone close to him has died on the show. (I think ... I'm so polluted with fanon that I suck at canon.)

Plus, like Dead!Amber said, he was just feeling sorry for himself. (with good reason).

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

Him feeling sorry for himself is a very, very good point. I doubt he would've argued that some other addict who happened to be on the bus should have died vs. Amber.

[leaper182.livejournal.com]

I don't remember any specific statements off-hand, but I've always gotten the impression that his mentality was, "People die in stupid and strange ways all the time." This time, he's stating that it's unfair that young do-gooders should die in bus accidents whereas old drug addicts don't.

Personally, I'm thinking that it's because this is Wilson's heart on the line -- he was bending over backward to do what Wilson wanted because Wilson was worried and panicked. And now that Amber's dead, House and Wilson are going to have to deal with what that means to them.

House not being able to fix her is going to stick with Wilson, and he might even lash out in ways, but at the same time, it really wasn't House's fault. Granted, it's a shame that he didn't do the shock treatment sooner, but they still wouldn't have been able to do anything about the poisoning if they'd found out about it sooner.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Yes and no. Previously, I think House approached death as an abstract. He held everyone at a distance, so death happened at a distance. It might have affected him, but he could rationalize it.

Amber's death hit him personally. He may not have liked her, probably resented her, even. But, she was Wilson's, and as difficult as it was for him, I think he wanted Wilson to be happy. He knows, and accepts that death can be random. In this case, he wishes it were him, because of his guilt and fear, and love.

(And yes, that is completely unorganized, but my wee brain is still processing it.)

[alsaurusrex.livejournal.com]

It doesn't seem like something he would usually say or think, but I got the impression that the entire ordeal was affecting him greatly. He felt guilty about Amber's death and his part in it, and most of all, afraid of what Wilson would think of him. House doesn't usually show feelings like this.
His normal opinion would be that anyone can die at any time, and that's just the way it is and it's not ever fair and that you should get over it. But this situation directly affects his life. I believe that all opinions are formed very much by perspective, and I think his perspective has been thrown out of whack.

But that's just me. =)

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

I think, as dream!Amber pointed out, he's feeling a lot of self-pity now. House is a control freak. When he realized that even though he'd put his own life on the line, there was nothing he or anyone could do to save Amber's, it broke down a wall. I think he and Wilson both thought that House was going to save the day against all odds.

House is finally realizing that he's not the God of Diagnostics, he's a person with a lot of limitations. And I think he realized that because Amber, as an extension of Wilson, was the first patient he's ever had who was more than an intellectual puzzle. I dont' think he values his own life as much as he values Wilson's happiness.

So it was vastly different, but I like that it was. I want to see House (and Wilson) change.

[roga.livejournal.com]

I dont' think he values his own life as much as he values Wilson's happiness.

Yes. And I think it's especially interesting to see how that plays out now, as opposed to how their relationship played out during the Tritter arc. Because House was giving Wilson a lot of crap beck then, and I don't think the above statement is true for that time period - or if it was, House sure didn't let it affect his actions.

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

That's a good point - they were a lot pricklier and more backbitey then.

[barred-subject.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I see that dynamic as slotting in thus:
House's curiosity > House's short-term avoidance of pain > House's unwillingness to back down > House's valuation of Wilson's happiness > House's valuation of his own long-term happiness > House's valuation of his own life.

[roga.livejournal.com]

Ooh, that's interesting! I really do hope those last two happen, eventually.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

House is finally realizing that he's not the God of Diagnostics, he's a person with a lot of limitations.

That came up a lot over the past few episodes. House encouraging his team to stand up to him, and House telling Cuddy, "You should've stopped me" in Living the Dream, for example.

[roga.livejournal.com]

I think it doesn't, but that there's a reasonable explanation for that. House believes and has always acted and said and taught that life isn't fair, so no, "the world shouldn't work like that" doesn't go hand in hand with his views.

But it does make sense that he's saying this now: for one, now it's personal. It's personal, and he cares for Wilson (and even for Amber, but mostly for Wilson), and he totally feels guilty, and it makes sense that he's lashing out at the world, in a way, even if his tone is quiet and heartbreaking. He knows what Amber means to Wilson, he knows the crap he continuously puts Wilson through, and since Wilson is truly one of his only personal, emotional anchors in this world, when it comes down to it - at least, this season, in these circumstances, and combined with his guilt - he feels like he owes Wilson this, which is why he agrees to undergo the procedure, and which is why he feels like he was the one who should have died, and not Amber. He's only using the cliched phrases "old drug addicts" and "young do-gooders" as an excuse to repeat this mainstream moral view, when in fact he's referring to the very personal situation of him and Amber.

Secondly - we have to remember that he's not really having this conversation with Amber, but with himself. So this is really House feeling frustrated and sad by what's going on, the inner voice who gets to complain that the world isn't fair, before House's rational mind - personified by Amber - reminds him that you can't always get what you want, and everybody dies, and c'est la vie, baby. Life sucks.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, YES.

And it's the juxtaposition of choice with chance. We can only control our choices. We can't control chance. House hasn't encountered it in such a personal way before. He chose to continue treating Wilson like crap. He chose to get drunk. He chose to ride the bus. He's facing the consequences of his choices. He tries to make amends but it's too late.

And yet, he chooses to come back and face up to it. That I think is the biggest change yet.

[roga.livejournal.com]

And yet, he chooses to come back and face up to it. That I think is the biggest change yet.

Okay, the episode itself didn't affect me as hard as the post-ep discussions are, but that line right there makes me want to cry.

Also, my icon. How they once smiled! *sniff*

[nightdog-barks.livejournal.com]

As topaz_eyes said, yes and no. *g*

I do think it's consistent with House's view of death -- that this life is all we've got, and we should try and make everything of it that we can in the time we have. Ergo, it's better for an old drug addict to die rather than a young do-gooder, because the do-gooder (should) still have a lot of time to at least try and make the world a better place.

The other part ... hm. House seems to think that life is pretty much a total crapshoot, so it shouldn't really matter who lives and who dies. My personal opinion is that he feels some degree of guilt over Amber's death, and so he's beating himself up a bit.

[deelaundry.livejournal.com]

But if "This is all not just a test" then what place does external intervention in who lives and dies hold? In order for do-gooders vs. addicts to live, some external force -- be it a higher power or existence itself -- would have to make that determination and act.

Many people have pointed out the abstract vs. personal aspect. Maybe that's it.

(Also I LOLed a little bit at House calling Amber a do-gooder, because I'm thinking that wasn't her number one priority.)

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

I thought "do-gooders" was a reference to their willingness to give rides to drunk!House, because otherwise it's a completely wrong characterization for her. *g*

[roga.livejournal.com]

I figured it was also a reference to Wilson - Wilson's the do-gooder here, or at least has the appearance of one, and House is saying the good guys should end up well off, and the bad guys should croak.

[roga.livejournal.com]

because the do-gooder (should) still have a lot of time to at least try and make the world a better place.

Really? You think House thinks making the world a better place is better than someone pursuing his own happiness? (be it via drugs, or whatever.)

[nightdog-barks.livejournal.com]

*smiles*

I actually do think that very deep down, buried beneath all those layers of Angry, Bitter, Jackass, there's a (tiny) part of House that still thinks it's a good thing to do the right thing. Or perhaps a better phrasing is that it's the right thing to do the right thing.

The only example I can think of right now is his refusal to give a rah-rah scripted speech for Edward Vogler, and I'm sure there are tons of counter-examples, so it's probably a moot point.

[hannahrorlove.livejournal.com]

it's the right thing to do the right thing
There was the bit in Control, when his patient asked him why he risked so much to save her, and he answered by saying she was his patient. So there's another.

[roga.livejournal.com]

Doing the right thing - that might be it. And really, the reason House doesn't like do-gooders is that they claim they're sacrificing and doing things for others, when he feels they're doing it to make themselves feel good, so he hates the hypocrisy, not the actual act of doing for others. I don't think he has any specific opinion about that.

And House can get away with doing the right thing now and again, seeing as "the right thing" is entirely subjective.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

House is, at heart, an extremely moral person. Most people don't see this because his surface immorality is so well-developed.

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

...

This is possibly my favorite character description of House ever, ever, ever.

[suiciderunner.livejournal.com]

From Three Stories: "I know this may go against everything you've been told, but right and wrong do exist. Just because you don't know what the right answer is, even if there's no way you could know, doesn't make your answer right or even okay. It's much simpler than that: It's just plain wrong."

[calamitysxchild.livejournal.com]

It doesn't follow his previously stated views. However, as I kept mentioning to the people I was watching the episode with, this was an entirely new perspective. This wasn't just a patient that his job was to "figure out." This was his best friend's loved one, and someone he had worked with himself.

He and Wilson have been through a lot, and deep down, I think he's been worried for awhile that something might still "break" their friendship. This is a very real way in his mind of that happening. So not only is he now not looking at it from an objective perspective of doctor/patient as he functions best with, he's also seeing it as HIS mistake, that hurt HIS friend that he is already worried about making mistakes with.

And honestly...who's to say that even someone with his mentality with death wouldn't change their perspective in the moment they are forced to deal with it? He was feeling sorry for himself, he was scared of what would become of his friendship with Wilson, and he was hurting because his.. acquaintance, I guess we can call Amber, had just died and he had done just about everything he could to save her. People have changed their philosophies over much less. And in this case, I don't think he's changed his personal philosophy completely, it was just a unique and awful situation.

[hughlylorrie.livejournal.com]

I believe it matches up—House's views on death are that it is random, cruel, and harsh. His line reflects frustration and depression, and that it is affecting him deeply. Most of his other views were stated during times when he did all he could to not feel or care in any way; this time he was unable to shut that off.

[hry2007.livejournal.com]

I think it matches. House wants a just world but knows it isn't so. Also, he's pretty self-loathing, and I think his ability to recognize his own talents in this world are the main reason he's not dead yet.

[barred-subject.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that House has a view of how the world should be - it's just that he, unlike Cuddy, sees the 'gaping chasm' between how it should be and how it is. I don't think that's inconsistent at all. He's said things like this before - I'm thinking of the end of 'Distractions', which is still one of my favourite episodes, where he's talking to Cuddy about eternal order and justice and so forth in a bullshitting way, and she says 'The world doesn't work like that', and he suddenly becomes dead serious for a moment and says 'No. But it should.'
I think part of his general unhappiness is that he can't block from his mind either the knowledge of how things are or the feeling that they should be otherwise. He can keep himself from being fully conscious of the latter on a day-by-day basis only by a constant effort, by distracting himself, by wilfully defying the 'should' and all possible 'shoulds' - but there's a perpetual tension there.

[xaipw.livejournal.com]

I think House has consistently shown that he believes that life and death are completely random. That the only control we have is through the choices we make. Everything else is left up to chance.

"Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist."

I forget where that quote is from, but it always makes me think of House.
House may talk about life being a crapshoot, but I believe that he does try to do the right thing in his own twisted way. We haven't seen that so much in this season. But there are many episodes from season one that come to mind (Control, Role Model, Babies and Bathwater).
I often wonder if some of House's talk is just bluster. When he tells a patient that life is cruel and random, I think he's trying to convince himself of this as well. He tells himself that the universe is a harsh place because it's the only way that he can make sense of what has happened to him. And this world view also makes it easy for him to maintain an emotional distance from, well, everyone and everything.

But at the end of Wilson's Heart House was so vulnerable. I interpreted that scene as taking place in House's subconscious. In other words, we were let in behind the sarcastic veneer, and allowed to see that House thinks that things should matter. And that sometimes he does feel anger because life is unfair.

[hry2007.livejournal.com]

The quote is from George Carlin :)

[xaipw.livejournal.com]

Ah! Thank you!

[maddoggirl.livejournal.com]

Yay and nay, I think. Like other people have said, his world view has been pretty much 'there is no fair or unfair. People just die whenever, however' up 'til now. I don't think this shows inconsistency on the part of the writing, but it could be interpreted as either:
1) He has been lying before, covering up his real feelings with a kind of offhand callousness which has become the clichéd doctors' reaction to death. Amber's death has proved too much to bluff through and so the reality, the railing against the whims of the universe has burst through.
2) His world view has fundamentally adjusted because of the death.

I'm leaning to 1), because although we've never seen anyone close to him die before, I find it hard to believe that a middle-aged man would never have had anyone close die before. I don't think any death could completely shift the way he views life. I do, however, think it might provoke him to reveal his deeper, but always existant, feelings.

[arhh.livejournal.com]

I don't think it is inconsistant with how House really feels, but just inconsistant with the facade he presents to the world.

I think with that statement we got one of the rare few glimpses of his true nature of either who he is or who he wants to be.

Besides, this isn't something concerning some random patient. He is reflecting on Amber's death. I don't think she meant all that much to him other than the fact that Wilson loved her, but that makes all the difference to him. He loves Wilson himself, and we have seen him try, in his own way to lift Wilson out of a depression (the pranks of season 2, the amphetamines of season 3, etc.). I think he came to the realization, just as Wilson asked him to risk his life to save Amber, of the lengths he would go to, to see Wilson happy.

That being said, I think it was also some selfishness in there. He would rather die than face life with Wilson mad at him.

Complicated.

[hwshipper.livejournal.com]

I think everyone above me has already said this much better...

House's statement is completely his subconscious talking; nobody else is there to hear (not even Amber), therefore it doesn't need to be consistent with any previous stated views by his conscious self (which are of course all tied up with projecting the don't-care image he wants to project; I think he exaggerates). It only needs to be really consistent with previously stated views by his subconscious, and nothing occurs to me that contradicts.

Incoherant because it's late and I've only just seen the ep and am 24 hours behind on my flist & the forums...

[chewy-101.livejournal.com]

I think both sides of the spectrum were at play there. He was moping, wallowing, and not at all wanting to go back to the real world of Wilson's grief and possible anger. And as Amber, he was logical, somewhat apathetic and perfectly willing to embrace the random cruelty of it all. The only thing they agreed on was that he sucks and Wilson might agree. That made me sad, because all he did was call a friend for a ride home from a bar. Then he did his job as a doctor, but there was no hope for the patient. And, same as he always does, he went above and beyond his own comfort zone to solve the puzzle.

Some people have said it is proof of what House would do just to make Wilson happy. I don't necessarily agree. Perhaps my version of House is too much of an asshole, but I don't think his main goal was to make Wilson happy so much as to prove to Wilson in the end that he would go as far as he was asked to so Wilson could not blame him. When Amber dies, Wilson is going to have to put that anger somewhere and House doesn't want it to be on him. Hell, Wilson is angry enough at him on a general basis, and this would be too much. Besides, people and their grief are not exactly his cup of tea.If someone grieves on him he is either going to mock them and run away, or fix it so they stop grieving. He doesn't do the holding your hand while you cry thing too well. That is reason enough not to want to get off the bus.

I think Anne Dudek scored the greatest part of all the survivor candidates. Seriously, what an incredible year for her!

[daisylily.livejournal.com]

What everyone else said, plus House was on the 'bus' with Amber when he said it, and he wasn't wanting to go back.

*is still a) slightly drugged and b) head-spinny from watching ep*